Where Two Or More Are Gathered..........

This is the place where all are welcome to join in and engage in spiritual, uplifting and intellectual conversation.Please do join us,won't you.....

Tuesday, April 26, 2005

Sacred Institution?



I would like to open up a channel for discussion on something that has puzzled me for a while. I was recently reminded of it while reading a comment by Two Dogs on Imara's post "Low Down" , about men living a bi- sexual lifestyle. The comment made by Two Dogs had to do with his judgment of people who live together. Two Dogs stated that "living together " doesn't count as a committed relationship. To this, I asked Two Dogs why he felt this way. I also asked him other questions concerning his Catholic faith, such as , if one sleeps with another person out of wedlock , why is it considered a sin? I also asked him if living together was "in sin" , what was the "sin" part of it , the sex? I have yet to receive an answer from him. This is typical when he has no good rhetoric to spew.

I would just like to briefly go over my understanding about the institution of marriage and it's history. If one has belief in the Christian Bible, then one would know and understand the story of Adam and Eve. These two humans were supposedly the first beings to walk the Earth. According to the story, God first made Adam, then fashioned Eve from Adam's rib. They were NOT married , and if the story is to be believed, all human beings came from these two people. This would mean that these two sinners had sex out of wedlock. Also, while searching through the Bible, I came across a list of forbidden sexual relations that one is supposed to adhere to if they believe in Christianity. It lists sex with one's mother, sister , neighbor's wife, aunt, pet , sister in law, daughter in law , daughter , grand children, during menstruation, and with another man as forbidden. No where does it list sex with someone not related to you and not married, of the opposite sex as forbidden. These rules were supposedly dictated by Jesus, who stated that these were his rules , and not the word of God. I must also note that these rules were written for a man to abide by. It does not address a woman's relations because at the time the Bible was written, a woman had no rights and was considered a man's property.

It is also written in the Bible that marriage was an agreement between a man , and his wife's father . This institution was equivalent to slavery in the sense that a man who married a woman, had to trade a set number of cattle and a different assortment of farm animals in order to claim rights to his wife. This was strictly prearranged by the man and the wife's father as a transaction of property. After such a transaction, the woman was then the legal property of the man without consent or approval from the woman. This practice still goes on today in some countries around the world.

Marriage was primarily devised as a way for society to transfer property, protect bloodline, and provide a secure environment for perpetuation of the species. Throughout history, marriage has slowly evolved into what we tend to think of today as marriage. In the past , and even today, marriage was arranged by families for economic reasons, without consent from the two parties. It was in 866 when Pope Nicholas I declared that marriage must be performed with the consent of both parties in order to be valid. Even today , this is not always the case because prearranged marriages are still common in some cultures. Marriage was often performed without witnesses or ceremonies. It wasn't until 1563, when the Council of Trent declared that marriage should be performed in the presence of a priest, and at least two witnesses. There are several different types of marriages that exist . Polygamy, polygyny(my favorite), polyandry, endogamy, exogamy, common law marriage, and monogamy are all types of marriages still practiced today all around the world.

147 Comments:

Blogger Nzyme said...

Ok, it's obvious that Two Dogs has never heard of Common Law Marriage.

"Common law marriage makes you a legally married couple in every way, even though you never obtained a marriage license. If you choose to end your relationship, you must get a divorce, even though you never had a wedding. Legally, common law married couples must play by all the same rules as "regular" married couples."

So, basically, if you "shack" long enough, you're married in the eyes of some states. Getting married in the church is merely for the benefit of your union being recognized by GOD or Jesus, or whomever can send you to Heaven or Hell.

Soundboyz, what are your thoughts on married swingers?

Tue Apr 26, 09:36:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Soundboyz, this post has made me question my beliefs on marriage... very interesting, I must say.

Tue Apr 26, 09:40:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Soundboyz, what are your thoughts on married swingers?

Groovy Baby!!!!Yeaaaaahhh!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 09:43:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>So, basically, if you "shack" long enough, you're married in the eyes of some states. Getting married in the church is merely for the benefit of your union being recognized by GOD or Jesus, or whomever can send you to Heaven or Hell.

If God said, "where two or more are gathered (good name Soundboyz...) in my name, there shall I be, why does getting married in a church please God?

Tue Apr 26, 09:44:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Soundboyz, this post has made me question my beliefs on marriage... very interesting, I must say.


Don't worry Imara, you are not considered property in my book. Now go write my posts!!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 09:44:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Soundboyz, what are your thoughts on married swingers? Groovy Baby!!!!Yeaaaaahhh!!!!

Wouldn't that be cheating... ADULTRY?

Tue Apr 26, 09:45:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>If God said, "where two or more are gathered (good name Soundboyz...) in my name, there shall I be, why does getting married in a church please God?

Does this mean........we're MARRIED Imara?...

Tue Apr 26, 09:46:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Don't worry Imara, you are not considered property in my book. Now go write my posts!!!!!

Caallmm down, Soundboyz! We haven't been blogging long enough to be considered "Common Law Bloggers"! You can't tell me what to do... you're not my boss!!

Tue Apr 26, 09:46:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Wouldn't that be cheating... ADULTRY?

No, not if both parties are in consent and swap.

Tue Apr 26, 09:47:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Does this mean........we're MARRIED Imara?...

Soundboyz, you should be so LUCKY!! LOL!!

Wait... are you asking? We could have a nice little blog ceramony right here? Nzyme could be my Maid of Honor, and Two Dogs could be your Best Man...

Tue Apr 26, 09:48:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Nzyme, what are your thoughts on swingers?

Tue Apr 26, 09:50:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Caallmm down, Soundboyz! We haven't been blogging long enough to be considered "Common Law Bloggers"! You can't tell me what to do... you're not my boss!!

Blogging laws state that "if two parties of the opposite sex are entered into a blog relationship for a period exceeding one month(30 days), then both parties shall be considered for all legal purposes as blog spouses".

We just celebrated our one month anniversary on Friday sweetie!!

Tue Apr 26, 09:51:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Two Dogs could be your Best Man...

More like my worst nightmare!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 09:52:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>...then both parties shall be considered for all legal purposes as blog spouses".

Is it too late to ask for a pre-nuptual blog agreement?

Tue Apr 26, 09:53:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Is it too late to ask for a pre-nuptual blog agreement?

YES!!!! Now , go write some posts!!!

Tue Apr 26, 09:55:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

YES!!!! Now , go write some posts!!!

Yes, Sir. I will get right on it! LOL!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:00:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

But seriously, why does marriage appeal so much to women when it stemmed from a tradition of treating women like property and slaves?

Tue Apr 26, 10:12:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

> Nzyme, what are your thoughts on swingers?

NOTICE: Single swinger seeking common law relationship with swinger of the opposite sex.

The funny this is this: I had a conversation with my ex-husband Sunday night during which he disclosed the fact that he too is a freak. I told him if I'd known that, I might have hung in there and tried to make our marriage work. After a few years apart, during which we've both done a bit of maturing, we've reopened the lines of communication. Ironic, huh? We could've been swinging beds instead of swinging fists!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:17:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>But seriously, why does marriage appeal so much to women when it stemmed from a tradition of treating women like property and slaves?

Young woman are brought up to buy into the "fairy tale" that your prince charming will come and make you a princess. Woman are emotional, and the whole pomp-and-circumstance appeals to us. Also, if a man is willing to proclaim his love for us, by marriage, it gives us a feeling of validation. I know it sounds shallow, but unfortunately, it's true.

Tue Apr 26, 10:17:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>NOTICE: Single swinger seeking common law relationship with swinger of the opposite sex.

Nzyme, is that your ad? LOL!!

>After a few years apart, during which we've both done a bit of maturing, we've reopened the lines of communication. Ironic, huh?

Sometimes you need to take a step back from the situation, and grow on your own in order to appreciate what you had. I hope it works out for you two!

Tue Apr 26, 10:21:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Check this out: Swinger Diary

Imara,

Since I still love the dude, I hope so as well.

Tue Apr 26, 10:23:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

So, are you telling me that women just want to be treated like a princess for a day and like crap for the rest of the time? I know that not all marriages are crap, but approximately 50% wind up in divorce. Not to mention the rest that are miserable , but stay together for the kids!!!I think roughly about 20% of marriages are healthy working relationships. That's not factual, it's just from my observation!!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:26:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Imara, Since I still love the dude, I hope so as well.

I checked out the link... my, my, my! Swinging is not for me, but it does sound interesting!

Curious, if you still love him... why did the relationship end? I'm sure if you both work together, you can work it out. Remember, a relationship is a work in progress. Not everyday is going to be "heaven". You have to work through the rough times.

Tue Apr 26, 10:31:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Check this out: Swinger Diary

Imara, DON'T go looking at that crap!!!!!!!

NZYME!!!!!!!!This is the second warning!!!!!!One more and I'm going to ban that IP!!!!!!!

Now, can we have discussions that pertain to the topic!!Please!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:31:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>So, are you telling me that women just want to be treated like a princess for a day and like crap for the rest of the time?

No, Soundboyz! We want the "happily ever after".

I know what you mean about the divorce statistics. They are very sad. People have to realize that a relationship is a commitment. Too often, people think they don't love someone, and they decide to leave. They are just searching for that euphoric feeling they first had. Love doesn't work that way. My mother told me, the real love doesn't come until you've fallen out of love with a man. I never understood... but I do now that I'm older.

Tue Apr 26, 10:35:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Soundboyz,

This post is about marriage, correct? If you check out Swinger Diary, it's about a married swinger couple. You mean to tell me you're going to censor such relationships from this post? That's pretty narrow-minded, sir. You need to CHILL OUT!!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:36:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>I checked out the link... my, my, my! Swinging is not for me, but it does sound interesting!


I just KNEW this was going to go there!!!People , let's be grown up about things and cut out this immature stuff!!!!I knew Nzyme was out to corrupt you Imara!!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:37:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Now, can we have discussions that pertain to the topic!!Please!!!!

Soundboyz, Nzyme's comment DOES pertain to the topic... in a round about way!

Tue Apr 26, 10:38:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

OK .....I see where it relates to the topic ......KIND OF.....but i'm keeping a close eye on you two. Damn, you can't even have blog girlfriends hanging with your blog wife!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:42:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Nzyme, I wouldn't swing because I don't think I could stand the thought of my man being with another woman. I'm curious to get another woman's opinion would you be down for this?

Tue Apr 26, 10:46:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

I don't know if any of you saw Nanny 911 yesterday. It was a perfect example of how a marriage can go from something good , to something awful. I was happy with the way it ended because it shows that behind every problem, lies a solution. It also showed me that no matter how bad a situation looks, it can be resolved in a kind and loving way.

When people have unresolved issues and they bring them into a marriage, it only makes things worse!!!Nzyme, I wonder if that's what happened in your case? You both might of had unresolved issues and brought them into the marriage.

Tue Apr 26, 10:46:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Imara,

I don't know if you had a chance to read a particularly painful post concerning our marriage, but Soundboyz did.

Basically, I was emotionally unstable due to abuse (incest, rape, verbal/physical abuse from mother) prior to our relationship. I was in and out of institutions, and very suicidal. I also cut myself with razor blades. It was a lot for him to deal with, not to mention my children, whom he cared for while I was inpatient.

Meanwhile, I suppose our marriage was a strain and a headache--a codependent relationship. All of his friends were single, and made it seem as if marrying me was a mistake. So, he partied, drank, and we fought on several occasions after he came home from nightclubs. Eventually, he cheated on me, and I packed his bags.

I can't say that I fault either of us for the divorce. We had issues that needed to be dealt with individually before we could coexist. As I look back, all I can say is that he was my best friend. There has been a hole in my life since he left, and not just because I'm single. I've missed him as a person. Anyway, I know I'm getting all mushy and stuff, so that's that!

Tue Apr 26, 10:47:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>There has been a hole in my life since he left,

Isn't that what Dolphie is for?

Tue Apr 26, 10:51:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Nzyme, would you get married again? Why or why not?

Tue Apr 26, 10:52:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>I don't know if you had a chance to read a particularly painful post concerning our marriage

I haven't seen this... is it an old one?

I am sorry to hear that you had so many issues to deal with. It sounds like you really miss him, and would like to atleast see if there is still something there that can be lasting. I am hopeful that if you are both open, and communicate your needs maybe you can work it out. Have you forgiven him for cheating? Have you forgiven yourself for the issues you brought to the relationship?

Tue Apr 26, 10:53:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Isn't that what Dolphie is for?

See, you accuse Nzyme and I of going there, but it is really YOU!!! LOL!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:56:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Soundboyz,

Believe me, that hole is well maintained by Dolphie!! I'm speaking of the friendship we shared, sir!!

Tue Apr 26, 10:57:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>I don't know if any of you saw Nanny 911 yesterday.

I haven't seen this show, but I hear it's funny... I heard there haven't been any black families on it yet. I wonder why...

Tue Apr 26, 10:57:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>Have you forgiven him for cheating? Have you forgiven yourself for the issues you brought to the relationship?

Yes, on both counts. And he has forgiven me as well.

Tue Apr 26, 10:59:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Okay, here is/are my two cents, and that is probably the value that y'all will assign to it.

Marriage is a covenant between two people that is witnessed by the families, friends, and performed in the sight of G_d by a man of the cloth. For me, and people that share my faith, we see this as the beginning of the relationship. Even though Carla and I lived together before we married, things were changed by the ceremony. It deepened my devotion to her and made everything that we did together even more special than it was before.

Today, is the one year anniversary of her death and I spent a few minutes this morning looking at our wedding album. Damn.

As far as the living in sin is concerned, yes sex out of marriage is a sin to me. Yes, I did it and for the most part I do not regret being with Carla in that way. The sex that I do regret occurred with the nameless, faceless many that I used in my youth. I wasted a good part of what I had that was uniquely mine to share with the woman that had everything that was mine to give. Sorry, if that is hard to understand.

Tue Apr 26, 11:01:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>The whole concept of swinging involves a mutual trust in the swinging relationship.

I believe that sex is something that you share with your S.O. ONLY, so I don't see where the "trust" comes in.

You say that you would be with the female, too. But would you be willing to be with the male? What if feelings start to develop between any of you? Wouldn't that make things difficult?

Tue Apr 26, 11:02:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Ok, I was saving this for National Coming Out Day, but I guess I'll have to spill the beans early!! I am bisexual,

Hey Nzyme, it's normal....I buy sex all the time too!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:02:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Yes, on both counts. And he has forgiven me as well.

Nzyme, this is a GOOD sign! Girl, you better go get your man!! LOL!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:03:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>I haven't seen this show, but I hear it's funny... I heard there haven't been any black families on it yet. I wonder why...

Imara.........you know Damn well that no black family is going to have some British folks all up in their bidness!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:04:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Sorry, if that is hard to understand.

Two Dogs, I understand what you're saying... I just don't think it's right to "judge" people that don't believe the same thing. If you read Soundboyz' post, you see that there is a strange and twisted history to marriage. I think we should live a good life based on what we believe and let others do the same.

I'm sure that Carla appreciates that you took time to remember her today, and everyday. That's very sweet. Will you still be posting the pictures today?

Tue Apr 26, 11:09:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Imara.........you know Damn well that no black family is going to have some British folks all up in their bidness!!!!

LOL!!! Plus, Big Mama can fix that situation in two two's, with a good swing of a shoe! That's why black folks don't need no British Nanny...

Tue Apr 26, 11:12:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> It deepened my devotion to her and made everything that we did together even more special than it was before.

How????I always get this same crap about marriage. I can never get a man to fully explain what it means or how it's different. They always come up with the , duhhh....I don't know....she wanted it, or the, it's something you have to experience crap!!!

Maybe the man just gets caught up in the emotions of the ceremony, and thus has a touching experience. Then, when it wears off and the reality sets in, nothing is different except they're now thousands of dollars in debt and they have nothing to show for it except some wedding photos and overpriced wedding bands!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:13:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>I am bisexual

Nzyme, have you ever had a relationship with another woman, or is it strickly sexual?

Tue Apr 26, 11:14:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>You say that you would be with the female, too. But would you be willing to be with the male? What if feelings start to develop between any of you? Wouldn't that make things difficult?

Ummm, yeaaahh!! Again, it all depends on the mindsets of the participants. I guess you've just gotta be a freak to understand. There are several Black "secret sex societies" which came into existence due to Zane's books. I was invited to join one in Houston, TX but I haven't participated yet. Maybe I'll invite the ex...

Tue Apr 26, 11:14:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

I'm going over to Two Dogs NOW!!!!!He promised some pictures!!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:16:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>Today, is the one year anniversary of her death and I spent a few minutes this morning looking at our wedding album. Damn.

Two Dogs,

I'm sorry about your loss.

Tue Apr 26, 11:16:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> I was invited to join one in Houston, TX but I haven't participated yet. Maybe I'll invite the ex...


UUUUhhhhmmmm....Nzyme, don't you think that maybe you might want to have a one on one with your ex before going to one of these places. I'm just saying, maybe you two might want to catch up on old times or stuff like that.....just a thought!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:19:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>Nzyme, have you ever had a relationship with another woman, or is it strickly sexual?

Strictly sexual. I keep that stuff behind closed, locked doors. I do not want my sexual orientation to influence my childrens' decisions when they become adults. I don't think that I could be in a "relationship" with a woman without my children finding out. Furthermore, due to PMS, I wouldn't WANT to be with a woman 24/7.

Tue Apr 26, 11:19:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Yes to the pictures. I will share the most bestest minute of my entire life with you thugs. I hope you find as much joy in the pictures as I do.

soundboyz, what I went through during and after the ceremony was not really "feelings" but more a profound sense of duty and honor. I say that it made my life more meaningful because I proved that I was in the relationship for the long haul and that nothing would or could change that. Love is not necessarily a feeling, but more of an action that you make a definite decision on every day and with time becomes more of something else that I can't quite describe, but dammit I wish that I could.

Tue Apr 26, 11:20:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>UUUUhhhhmmmm....Nzyme, don't you think that maybe you might want to have a one on one with your ex before going to one of these places. I'm just saying, maybe you two might want to catch up on old times or stuff like that.....just a thought!!!

What the hell do you think we did Sunday night?? And I must say, I was truly impressed!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:21:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>Love is not necessarily a feeling, but more of an action that you make a definite decision on every day and with time becomes more of something else that I can't quite describe, but dammit I wish that I could.

Awwwwwww...that's beautimus!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:22:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Thanks Nzyme, I know that you know what I'm talking about even if I can't really say what it is that I mean. And yes, soundboyz, I know that I am making your point for you.

Tue Apr 26, 11:32:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Love is not necessarily a feeling, but more of an action that you make a definite decision on every day and with time becomes more of something else that I can't quite describe, but dammit I wish that I could.

Two Dogs... we actually agree on something. I made this same point earlier in this very post! I have been screaming this for years. If everyone could understand this, the divorce rate would drastically drop!

Tue Apr 26, 11:33:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Love is not necessarily a feeling, but more of an action that you make a definite decision on every day and with time becomes more of something else that I can't quite describe, but dammit I wish that I could.


Imara, don't be so Gullible , where the hell do you think Ol' TWo Dogs got it from!!!!!!Females are sooooo Gullible !!!!

Cut the mushy shit and post the pics Dogs!!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:39:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>soundboyz, what I went through during and after the ceremony was not really "feelings" but more a profound sense of duty and honor

Yea.....RRRRiiiighttt.Listen, I felt this same sense of "duty and honor" when I took the oath to serve this country. Now that i'm out, I don't feel a deep sense of love or any other shit....except pride that I did serve.See, you can get that sense from other things, so marriage is like enlisting in the military, it gives you a sense of duty and honor and great pride to wear the uniform/ring. Then , you go through years of hell and torture where you wished you never enlisted in the first place!!!!You are made to do things you don't want to do. Then, ever so often, you're given the opportunity to either sign on for longer , or get the hell out!!!Some stay and become lifers, some get as far away from that shit as possible!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:47:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Imara, I do follow that exact same reasoning. I think that it might have been something that my preist said when Carla and I were going to the pre-marital class thing that our church made us attend. Sorry, I haven't read all the comments, I have to try to do some work occassionally.

Tue Apr 26, 11:48:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

And just to clarify, love IS a feeling or emotion!!!!!Commitment is the thing where you make a conscious decision to do something or to not do something!!!!!I made a commitment to Uncle Sam, that was a conscious decision to serve, that didn't mean that I loved him!!!!

But, I could say that to get all the women !!!!Two Dogs!!!!Personally, I think you are a fraud!!!!!!!I see no pictures. All I hear is some mushy Harlequin romance type Dr. Phil type Oprah type Dear Abby type bullshit!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:51:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Soundboyz, your military/marriage analysis is funny!

Tue Apr 26, 11:52:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Imara, I do follow that exact same reasoning. I think that it might have been something that my preist said when Carla and I were going to the pre-marital class thing that our church made us attend. Sorry, I haven't read all the comments, I have to try to do some work occassionally.

Bullshit!!!!!!Imara actually wrote this on the post about the "Down Low" , so you did see it !!!!You are so full of it, it's real funny Dogs!!!!You can play that emotional shit with the women, but you can't fool me with that shit!!!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 11:56:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Sorry you think that, soundboyz.

Tue Apr 26, 12:05:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Sorry you think that, soundboyz.


Aaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwww SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!

So sorry Two Dogs. I don't mean to hurt your feelings. Oh, sorry , not your "feelings" but more of an action that you make a definite decision on every day and with time becomes more of something else that I can't quite describe, but dammit I wish that I could. Dammit......I wish I could too!!!!Now post some Damn pics, can you do that?

Tue Apr 26, 12:13:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Imara, don't be so Gullible , where the hell do you think Ol' TWo Dogs got it from!!!!!!Females are sooooo Gullible !!!!

Soundboyz, you don't think Two Dogs really feels this way? I do. Especially since he posted those lovely wedding pictures! ... oh, wait... he hasn't posted them? I'm shocked, Two Dogs always delivers! Oh, wait... that's not true either? LOL!!

Where are the pictures, Two Dogs? You know us women loves that kind of stuff. I wanna see...

Tue Apr 26, 12:14:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Wait.....let me guess.......He's so busy , he hasn't had a chance to do it. Wait.....I got it , better yet for you ladies, I don't think I am fully ready to share this precious and wonderful time of my life. Maybe when I have let enough time pass where I can stand the pain and learn to deal with the miraculous love we once shared......

Two Dogs, I am sorry for your loss, and that's no bull!!!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 12:22:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Soundboyz, be nice to Two Dogs. I'm sure today is a very difficult day for him.

Tue Apr 26, 12:35:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Two Dogs, would you get married again?

Tue Apr 26, 12:35:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

soundboyz, I am tough, bring it. You know that it's not a problem.

Imara, at this point in time, I am concentrating on getting my kid through high school and allowing myself enough time to get to a point where I can function normally again. I can't say for sure what the future holds and I really haven't thought about remarrying. Not ruling it out though, call me and we'll see.

As far as the pictures are concerned, yes they will be up today.

Tue Apr 26, 01:24:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Not ruling it out though, call me and we'll see.

I'm left of center, and you, my friend, are right of center... I don't know if this would work... besides, you should read this comment thread... Soundboyz has already "claimed" me as his "blog-wife", so I guess I'm off the market!

Tue Apr 26, 01:52:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Oh, I'm not right of center, I AM THE CENTER. Not only of the political spectrum, but also of the universe.

Tue Apr 26, 02:17:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>allowing myself enough time to get to a point where I can function normally again.

Right.....We don't have that kind of time!!!!You seem to be getting along well with Heyonce. Is his picture going to be up as well?

Tue Apr 26, 02:42:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Oh, I'm not right of center, I AM THE CENTER. Not only of the political spectrum, but also of the universe.

Oh,OK!!!! That explains why you always talk from UrAnus!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 02:46:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Oh,OK!!!! That explains why you always talk from UrAnus!!!!

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tue Apr 26, 02:54:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Two Dogs, you are RIGHT of CENTER, and you know it. Just look at some of your posts and comments.

Tue Apr 26, 02:55:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Two Dogs is trying the old bait and switch. He is claiming center when he knows he's really right of center!!!Then he claims everyone else as extremists!

Tue Apr 26, 03:01:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

I claimed the center because I was tired of Lefists claiming the center. I figure that I am a little more normal than Kerry, Boxer, Reid, and Dean. So, I would offer that since they claim to be moderates, so would I.

Tue Apr 26, 03:19:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

The problem with that is "you" claim to be more normal. You can claim to be whatever you like!The fact is that you are conservative, or you pretend to be .

Tue Apr 26, 03:53:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Patches said...

All
My first date with my wife was in Oct. 1963. We were married in Oct. 1965 (after the required tour(s) of duty in Vietnam with the US Air Force.) In all the years since neither one of us have had, wanted, or needed anyone else. This make me an expert on marriage? No. This make me a very lucky dog, Oh Yeah.

Loving someone and shacking up does not compute with me.
Common law is not marriage but a legal deal.
Loving someone and getting married computes and the marriage ceremony is a statement of commitment. Actually commitment is a poor choice of words, marriage is more then commitment. Describing what is more then commitment, would take 2 or 3 books of a few thousand pages each.
There is no room for a third party in a marriage unless it’s children. (Children are great and grandchildren may be greater still.)
Sex is important in a marriage but not all important.
Religion? My wife is very religious but I’m not religious at all, agnostic at best. (I went through a religious ceremony for my wife, but then I would go to hell for her too.)
When I watch young people today going through a marriage ceremony, it appears to me like Christmas; it’s all about the presents/party not any commitment. Most of the young people have already been living together so what’s left but to party?
Anyway that’s my 2 cents on this subject.

Tue Apr 26, 04:02:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Thanks Patches,

It is good to hear from someone with extensive first hand knowledge on the subject. I think that your experience does make you somewhat of an expert. After all , marriage is something that is very easy to get into , yet very hard to maintain. I do understand your views on marriage, but I still get that "elusive" feeling about the reason or the explanation .You stated that to explain it would fit into 2 or 3 books of a few thousand pages. I often get these types of "vague" descriptions when I ask men about marriage. Surely, it cannot be that complicated?

What i'm trying to say is, I have yet to get a clear reason or explanation for marriage, other than the cliche, you can't understand unless you are in it, or it's beyond words. Is it because marriage is what women want and when a man agrees to it , the woman becomes emotionally grateful? I don't know what could possibly happen different , other than the legal status and/or the social status?

Tue Apr 26, 04:55:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Patches, that is worth far more than two cents to me. I'm reading that you are coming up on forty years of wedded bliss? Congrats, I salute.

Tue Apr 26, 04:57:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Patches said...

Two Dogs
You should know there is no center to the universe. So you may be in a center but its not the universe, you better look around you may be in the center of s*** and there is no left or rightin s*** :)

Tue Apr 26, 04:59:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Two Dogs
You should know there is no center to the universe. So you may be in a center but its not the universe, you better look around you may be in the center of s*** and there is no left or rightin s*** :)

LOL!!!!!!!!I've been thinking the same thing ever since I saw Two Dogs post this on his blog!!!!Although, I was thinking of something worse than S***!!!You're the center alright Two Dogs!!!!!!The center of a A**H@%e!!

Tue Apr 26, 05:08:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

^sorry, I meant "an"

Tue Apr 26, 05:09:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Patches said...

Soundboyz
There are lots of things in this world that defy explanations, Love being one of the first and UFOs being one of the last. Take hunting, how can one love what one hunts and kills?
Ok gotta go, that wife of 40 yrs is telling me if I want to make it 41 I better get off this computer and do something constructive.

Tue Apr 26, 05:15:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

LOL!!!!!!You know Patches , strangely enough, from that comment , I think I understand what love is all about!!!

I want you to know that I value your opinions and I respect your wisdom. I know that these things can only come with time and experience.

Tue Apr 26, 05:25:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Goldi said...

Marriage according to Goldi:

If you have copious amounts of sex and share resources("say,can you pay my bills, pay my telephone bill, then maybe we can chill...")- its marriage;

A woman can have more than one husband;

You can be married and not live within the same domicile (sp?);

Christian doctrine is not the only way(religion=man made). C'mon most Christians do not follow the rules of Christianity;

And for all western Muslims (as American born regardless of race) and the Arab ones too; a woman is only totally submissive to her husband if she does not contribute financial resources to the household. And remember the Quran says "A man can have up to 4 wives, but if he is wise, he will have only one".

Me personally, I want to be like Queen Nzingha, all the men at my feet serving me.

Tue Apr 26, 05:34:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Hello Goldi,

Nice of you to stop by. I was starting to worry about you . I thought maybe one of your men was holding you ransom for $1.37. Anyway, as usual, you have to go there and show your A** on national Blogger. You know damn well you can't deal with one man, much less several!!

Something tells me your jewelry business is just a front for a dominatrix dungeon!!

Tue Apr 26, 06:08:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>Anyway, as usual, you have to go there and show your A** on national Blogger.

National Blogger?

Tue Apr 26, 10:58:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

The pictures are on my blog. Kiss my ass.

And no matter what you say patches, congratulations on 40 years of marriage. I salute.

Wed Apr 27, 01:17:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Goldi said...

Soundboyz - Why is it that if a woman is assertive she is a dominatrix or b**** (which means Babe In Total Control of Herself). Just because your life or the worthiness around it has alot do do with sex (you are happiest with Dolly), does not mean it is the same with everyone else.

And my creativity is the expression of the limitless Universe in this finite World. And plus if I score a couple of phone numbers after waxing philosophic.....so what!

Wed Apr 27, 07:42:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Why is it that if a woman is assertive she is a dominatrix or b**** (which means Babe In Total Control of Herself)

Goldi, I think it's because when a woman is assertive she is a threat to those around her, and most can only combat her strong and powerful energy by calling her a b*tch.

Nice acronym, by the way!

Wed Apr 27, 08:50:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Why is it that if a woman is assertive she is a dominatrix or b**** (which means Babe In Total Control of Herself).

Could it be that Soundboyz has been whipped, chained, spanked, and asked, "Who's your Mama?" against his will? Post Traumatic Sex Disorder?? If so, there's hope, sir. You CAN get over this and have a normal sex life again. For only $19.99, I'll send you my new self-help series entitled CUT THE SHIT. Let a sista know if you're interested...

Wed Apr 27, 08:56:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>Goldi, I think it's because when a woman is assertive she is a threat to those around her, and most can only combat her strong and powerful energy by calling her a b*tch.

LOL!! Yeah, you need my tapes!!!

Wed Apr 27, 08:58:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

I'll buy the tapes as long as they have Midnight Train to Georgia on 'em. Damn I love that song.

Wed Apr 27, 09:54:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Goldi said...

Imara - I see b**** all the time on t-shirts.

Nzyme - You may have a point... Yo, Soundboyz I'm 6'11" (I never get the '/" right) in heels and one of my crochet projects involves a whip & ballgag (no foolin')...

LOL - Psyche (Sike) your mind!

Wed Apr 27, 09:58:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

So, for an additional $16.99, would you like me to throw in my new self-love series entitled Dolphin Luv? This purchase entitles you to a FREE bottle of Slip'N Slyde lubricant and a copy of Nzyme's Valentine Jamz mixtape....no Midnight Train To Georgia, but guaranteed to please!! No POB's, COD's, or SASE's!!

Wed Apr 27, 10:20:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

I think that I will pass on the glass dildos, thanks for asking though. However, the Slip 'N Slyde lubricant sounds freaky.

Wed Apr 27, 10:29:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>LOL!! Yeah, you need my tapes!!!

No, Nzyme, I don't need the tapes. I know how to deal with people when they call me a b*tch... I just smile and take it as a compliment.

Wed Apr 27, 10:33:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Imara - I see b**** all the time on t-shirts.

Goldi, I've seen them too, and worse.

Wed Apr 27, 10:38:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

>No, Nzyme, I don't need the tapes. I know how to deal with people when they call me a b*tch... I just smile and take it as a compliment.

Imara, pardon me. I thought that was Soundboyz making that comment. BUT, if you ever need anything, I can get you the hookup over at Secret Playthings!!

Wed Apr 27, 10:41:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Imara, pardon me. I thought that was Soundboyz making that comment. BUT, if you ever need anything, I can get you the hookup over at Secret Playthings!!

Nzyme, no harm, no foul.

LOL!! You know a sistah could always use a hookup!

Wed Apr 27, 10:50:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> The pictures are on my blog. Kiss my ass.

I will do no such thing!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 11:28:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Soundboyz - Why is it that if a woman is assertive she is a dominatrix or b**** (which means Babe In Total Control of Herself).

Wow, It must be pick on Soundboyz day today!!!!I DID not call you a B*$@%, no matter what it translates into!! Don't accuse me of calling you that, I merely suggested that you ran a Dominatrix Dungeon. What's so wrong about that?

Wed Apr 27, 11:32:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>And plus if I score a couple of phone numbers after waxing philosophic.....so what!

What the HELL is "waxing philosophic"?
Are you running a Dominatrix ring or not?

Wed Apr 27, 11:35:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>and most can only combat her strong and powerful energy by calling her a b*tch.

Imara, I didn't call anybody a B*#%H!!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 11:36:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>Could it be that Soundboyz has been whipped, chained, spanked, and asked, "Who's your Mama?" against his will? Post Traumatic Sex Disorder?? If so, there's hope, sir. You CAN get over this and have a normal sex life again. For only $19.99, I'll send you my new self-help series entitled CUT THE SHIT. Let a sista know if you're interested...

No thanks.....

Wed Apr 27, 11:37:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Imara - I see b**** all the time on t-shirts.

I DIDN'TCALL ANYONE A BITCH!!!

Wed Apr 27, 11:39:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>So, for an additional $16.99, would you like me to throw in my new self-love series entitled Dolphin Luv? This purchase entitles you to a FREE bottle of Slip'N Slyde lubricant and a copy of Nzyme's Valentine Jamz mixtape....no Midnight Train To Georgia, but guaranteed to please!! No POB's, COD's, or SASE's!!

NO THANKS!!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 11:40:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>No, Nzyme, I don't need the tapes. I know how to deal with people when they call me a b*tch... I just smile and take it as a compliment.

I DID NOT CALL ANYONE A BITCH!!!!!!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 11:42:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> >Imara, pardon me. I thought that was Soundboyz making that comment.


FOR THE LAST TIME.......I DID NOT CALL ANYONE A BITCH!!!!!!!NOW YOU ALL ARE COMMENTING FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!!$*TCH#S!!!

Wed Apr 27, 11:46:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Imara, I didn't call anybody a B*#%H!!!!!

I was speaking in "general" terms, Soundboyz. Not implying that you called her a b*tch!

Wed Apr 27, 12:00:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Soundboyz, here's a little somethin' to soothe your nerves...

"Midnight Train To Georgia"

(As recorded by Gladys Knight & The Pips)
JIM WEATHERLY

L.A. proved too much for the man
So he's leavin' the life he's come to know
He said he's goin' back to find what's left of his world
The world he left behind not so long ago

He's leavin' on that midnight train to Georgia
Said he's goin' back to find the simpler place and time
I'll be with him on that midnight train to Georgia
I'd rather live in his world than live without him in mine

He kept dreamin' that someday he'd be a star
But he sho' found out the hard way that dreams don't always come true
So he's pawned all his hopes and he even sold his own car
Bought a one-way ticket back to the life he once knew

Said he's leavin' on that midnight train to Georgia
Said he's goin' back to find the simpler place and time
I'm gonna be with him on that midnight train to Georgia
I'd rather live in his world than live without him in mine

Oh he's leavin' on the midnight train to Georgia
Said he's goin' back to find the simpler place and time
I've got to be with him on that midnight train to Georgia
I'd rather live in his world than live without him in mine

All aboard, all aboard, all aboard
On the midnight train to Georgia
I got to go
I got to go
I got to go....

Wed Apr 27, 12:00:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Great song, simply beautiful. You sing it well, Nzyme.

Wed Apr 27, 12:02:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Two Dogs,
That'll be $19.99---finder's fee. I also found this:

kelley, can you handle this
Michelle, can you handle this
Beyonce, can you handle
I don't think you can handle this
wooooo
Make a move, Feelin right, lookin sexy, lookin fine
Baddest chick, chick inside, DJ jammin' night
inspite of me, attendin' this, there you are,
come on baby, don't you wanna, dance with me
can you handle, handle me
you gotta do whats betta if you gunna dance wit' me tonight, you gotta work your jelly if you gunna dance with me tonight read my lips carefully if you like what you see,
if you move to the groove you can hang with me
by the looks i got you shook up and scared of me
although you sit there til time of take off

Chorus:
I don't think you ready for this jelly
i don't think you ready for this jelly
I don't think you ready for this
Is my body to bootylicious for ya baby
I don't think you ready for this jelly
i don't think you ready for this jelly
I don't think you ready for this
Is my body to bootylicious for ya babe

Baby can you handle this,
baby can you handle this
baby can you handle this
I don't think you can handle this
wooooo....

Wed Apr 27, 12:04:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Soundboyz, I think we should get a cut of Nzymes' profits, don't you? I mean, she is using our forum to sell her goods! LOL!!

Wed Apr 27, 12:14:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

>I was speaking in "general" terms, Soundboyz. Not implying that you called her a b*tch!

Well, find the "general" that called her a B*tch and imply that he did it!

Wed Apr 27, 12:30:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

> Soundboyz, I think we should get a cut of Nzymes' profits, don't you? I mean, she is using our forum to sell her goods! LOL!!

I know !!!What's up with that? She sure is in a selling mood!!I hope she is paying taxes on that stuff, because I don't want Uncle Sam coming here looking for his cut!!!

Wed Apr 27, 12:34:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

The funny thing about that" MIdnight Train to Georgia" is that my parents owned the 45 and still to this day I can remember that purple label with the scary Buddah on it . It used to scare the crap out of me!! I think it still does!!!

Wed Apr 27, 12:39:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Speaking of my goods, if you'll mosey on over to my place, there's a FREE copy of Nzyme's Theme.... This is a limited time offer, only available to the first 3,000 bloggers, so HURRY!! LOL!! Oh, and don't worry, I DO have a DBA and TX state sales tax permit. But, because we're on "National Blogger," there is NO SALES TAX. You can't beat it!!

Wed Apr 27, 12:43:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Hmmmmm, that should be there's or there isn't any... But you know what I mean!!

Wed Apr 27, 12:45:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Two Dogs,

I WAS gonna sing "Mifnight Train" but I'l all stopped up!! LOL!! When my sinuses clear up, I'll sing it 'specially for you.

Wed Apr 27, 12:47:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

I'm scared to go to your blog, too much talk about strap ons and the like. There's probably a big glass wholphin with a belt on it on the first page.

Wed Apr 27, 12:58:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

ROFL................don't be skeered!!

Wed Apr 27, 01:00:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Nzyme said...

Soundboyz,

You mean like THIS one??

Wed Apr 27, 01:02:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!SHIT!!!!!!!

Nzyme!!!!!!!!!That was MEAN!!!!!!!! I just told you that I was afraid of that !!!!!!!You are cruel!!!!!!!!!!That wasn't FUNNY!!!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 02:11:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

I have actually laughed for the first time in a couple of days over this shit. Here's soundboyz in his Supathug costume.....

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-2/112270/BlackSuperman.jpeg

Wed Apr 27, 02:16:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That was the funniest shit EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 04:33:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

I rolled so hard , I cried!!!!!!!!OK TWo Dogs , you got that one!!!!!

Wed Apr 27, 04:35:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

I am here for your entertainment. I'll be here all week.

Wed Apr 27, 04:54:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Soundboyz... I apologize, but... that is the funniest thing I have seen in a long, long time!!

OH_MY_GOOD_LORD!!!!!!!

I have been laughing for 5 minutes straight! I need to get this as a screen saver!! LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!

Two Dogs, I would've paid to see that!!

Thu Apr 28, 11:48:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Oh, and I was reminded of a joke: What is the penalty for polygamy in Mississippi?

Sun May 01, 12:40:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

What Two Dogs?

Sun May 01, 03:05:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Two Dogs said...

Two wives. Ha!

Sun May 01, 03:29:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Ha Ha!

Hey , what do you call a married woman in Mississippi?

Sun May 01, 05:44:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

...........

Tue May 03, 07:10:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Hey , what do you call a married woman in Mississippi?

Okay, Soundboyz... what do you call a married woman in Mississippi?

Thu May 05, 10:07:00 AM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Your big fat SISTER!!!!!!!!!

Thu May 05, 11:29:00 AM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

>Your big fat SISTER!!!!!!!!!

Now that was just wronggggg! LOL!!

Thu May 05, 01:21:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Pastor Steve said...

Man do you need to spend some time actually reading what the Bible says about marriage.

Thu May 05, 02:08:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Pastor Steve,

I am so thankful that you stopped by and was moved to leave a comment. I'm sure that you could add a valuable prospective to this debate.

Please tell me some specific passages in the Bible where God, not Jesus, instructs on the "rules" of marriage. I will read them and then we can continue this debate, if you like.

Thu May 05, 02:38:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Pastor Steve said...

Imara,



Thanks for your response and your questions.



Your questions, I think, help me understanding you thinking a little more clearly.



I take it from your usage of the word “rules” and comment about not being married in a church that your argument is not so much against “marriage” as a Biblical concept, but rather with the way that marriage is carried out in Western culture. Would that be a correct assumption?



I believe Genesis 3:24 “Therefore a man shall leaven his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh,” and what precedes is it is the divinely established pattern for marriage. Your are correct to state that there are no “rules” of marriage, if by that you mean that no specific guidelines are given as to how this covenant union is to be brought about. I think God intentionally left that part vague for the sake of the variation He knew and I think intended for different cultural developments. I have had the privilege of participating in an Indian (not Native American) wedding. I can tell you that the whole process was quite different that what we do, but that didn’t make it any less a legitimate marriage.



I think my point in responding to your post was that you seem to be implying that anything can be called a marriage. If anything can be something than by definition that something (in this case marriage) is really meaningless. I think you realize that because that appears to be the conclusion that you have come to.



I would like to also comment on your usage of Matthew 18:20. That statement is found in the context of Jesus teaching on forgiveness and how to deal with someone who refuses to reconcile with the offended party. Jesus gives the steps in dealing with such a case which I won’t repeat here other than to say that the last step is to present the problem before the church (interestingly enough this is one of the few places Jesus mentions the church in the gospels). It is this church or assembly of believers to which Jesus is referring in which he states that he is among them no matter how small. So the context of the passage is that Jesus is giving the church the authority to deal with a brother or sister in Christ who won’t make things right.



Based on your interpretation of this passage one might be able to say that anything goes as long as a couple of people who believe in God get together and decide it’s OK. I don’t mean to say that you said that, but that would be the where this interpretation would lead if you carried out to its logical conclusion.



Now, back to the whole question of the “rules” of marriage. In the USA the states have been given the legal responsibility of issuing marriage licenses. Do I believe that this is a necessary element for a marriage to be a marriage in God’s eyes? Can I waffle for a minute? Yes and no. Yes in this sense only. As Christians we are told to submit to the authority of the government under which we live (Romans 13:1-7). The exception to this would be if the government requires me to do something that would be a denial of my faith or would violate my conscience and calling before God. We see examples of that in Daniel, Esther and the book of Acts and well as in some of the stories of the Old Testament prophets. Since obtaining a marriage license from the state in no way harms the covenant and is an act of submission to the governing authorities, I do believe that it is necessary for a Christian in our culture.



Having said that I can see on the horizon that it may be necessary for Bible-believing Christians to do just the opposite. If the state were to mandate “gay-marriage” then I think the church and its pastors will have to seriously consider divorcing itself (forgive the small pun) from the state in the issuing of marriage lisenses.



So to me the actual means by which the marriage happens can and does vary from culture to culture, but the basic concept of having some kind recognition of the marriage outside of just the two individuals is important. That recognizing body might be the government, the church, the tribe, the family or some other social structure depending on the culture. Why? Well, this takes us to the whole question of what a marriage is. Is it just two people who profess love living in the same location and having sexual relations? This is way of defining marriage is faulty. Two people can profess love and not be married and two people can be married and not love each other, not that I recommend it. You can be married and not be living in the same location. I have a son in the military who is stationed overseas. He is married, and his separation from his wife has not made him or her less married. Obviously, people can have sex and not be married, though, again, I don’t recommend it. Also, two people can be married and not be having sexual relations because of the physical limitations of one or the other or both. Many senior adults face this situation. Their lack of sexual functioning does not dissolve the marriage.



So if living in the same house, loving one another, and sex don’t define what a marriage is, what does? The Biblical word is “covenant.” I have gone on too long already and the concept of covenant requires a much fuller explanation than you may have time for here, but I would encourage you to delve into it. Let me at least say this, it is the idea of oneness, or unity. The model for it is in the Trinity and in Christ’s relationship with His people and in His ideal for His people’s relationship with each other (see John 17).



When God created Adam he did not make a woman for him. This was not an accidental oversight, but The University of Life, with God as the Dean and head Professor. God took from Adam’s side (division/separation) so as to bring Eve to Adam (unity of two separate individuals). This is why Paul said that for a man to love his wife the way he is supposed to it is as loving one’s own body. How? Marriage is a covenant which brings the unity from the division.



Now, as a part of covenant there needs to be a public acknowledgement and commitment to the covenant. Witnesses, if you please. Notice that Jesus approves of such an arrangement in that the very first miracle that he performed was performed at a wedding party he attended. There was in Jesus’ day a very specific cultural ceremony that took place that united a man and a woman in covenant for marriage.



So “rules” as to ceremony are culturally conditioned, but biblically sanctioned.



Beyond that, it might need to be stated that God’s design is a man and a woman for life.



God allowed for divorce, not because he approved of divorce. Divorce was and is not God’s best. But in certain circumstances divorce is clearly the only and best option when all is taken into consideration. Jesus gave the reason of adultery. Not that adultery required divorce, but that some relationships can never get over the breach of trust and the breaking of the covenant in that act. Paul added abandonment as a legitimate reason for divorce. Though I am speaking outside of what the Bible says, I believe that abuse is grounds for divorce and the breaking of the covenant.



I apologize for the length. And thank you for the challenging questions. I believe it is always helpful to have your faith and belief systems challenged.



Steve



http://emptyhandreachingup.blogspot.com/

Fri May 06, 01:44:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Pastor Steve, I must say that I am truly touched that you would go through such great lengths to explain this to me. It is greatly appreciated!

I feel like I must be upfront and say that I am not a deeply "religious" person, however, I feel I have a strong relationship with God. He has NEVER failed me yet. I can only hope that I honor him in return for his undying grace and mercy.

"...your argument is not so much against “marriage” as a Biblical concept, but rather with the way that marriage is carried out in Western culture. Would that be a correct assumption?"

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I have often had discussions with family and friends about what defines a "marriage", and I really think that being "married" starts way before you walk down the aisle. I think that marriage is a physical, mental and spiritual commitment. Therefore, doesn't need to be carried out in a "church". After all, I have been to many weddings that were performed by "Justice of the Peace", or not even performed in a church. Those folks' marriages are no less valid. I don't think that my own marriage would be less of a union, had I not been married in a church. I think we agree for the most part on this issue. I think because I am not Christian (or of any religion)I may be missing some of your points.

I must say, you made a comment that was very interesting to me...

"...As Christians we are told to submit to the authority of the government under which we live (Romans 13:1-7)."

This helps me to understand how the Bush Administration had been able to, in my opinion, manipulate the "Religious Right". I could never quite understand this until now. Thank you for that insight!

You mentioned the "Holy Trinity", which leads me to another question... if this was interjected into the Bible by the Trinitarian Church after the Bible was written, why is it such a mainstay of the Christian and Catholic religion? If God is Jesus, why did Jesus call out to God on the cross?

I apoligize for asking so many questions at once! Again, thank you so much for taking the time to respond!

Fri May 06, 02:45:00 PM 2005  
Blogger Imara said...

Oh and Pastor Steve, regarding my interpertation of the passage, "Where two or more are gathered...", I do believe that God was saying exactly what it says. But it all comes down to intentions. If two people gather with God in their heart, and with the purpose to do good to each other, and others, I believe God is with them.

Fri May 06, 02:55:00 PM 2005  
Blogger soundboyz said...

Imara, Leave Pastor Steve alone, he has bigger sinners than you to reach out to!!!

Although, I don't find Pastor Steve's reasons so convinsing!!!

>I think my point in responding to your post was that you seem to be implying that anything can be called a marriage. If anything can be something than by definition that something (in this case marriage) is really meaningless. I think you realize that because that appears to be the conclusion that you have come to.

Pastor Steve, you can have different marriages.Several forms of marriages are listed on this post!! You just admitted that marriage was not defined in the Bible, and it is left up to the state to govern marriage. So, if a state says that you are legally married in this state if you live together for 7 years or so, doesn't that make it as legitimate as say, someone who goes to Vegas and gets married in a 24 hour phone booth? If the state of Vegas allows marriage to be performed by online pastors, then why should one form of marriage be considered more "right" than the other?

Fri May 06, 03:13:00 PM 2005  

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